Elle, July 1987

Wake up and smell the (iced) coffee! It’s the late ‘80s, and Lucy is guiding us through an impressively progressive issue of Elle Magazine. Well, except for the beauty tips. From workers’ rights for women to LGBTQ positivity and taffeta skirts, this one has it all.

Join the discussion HERE. And if you haven’t listened to the episode yet, you can do that HERE.

[00:00:00] Lucy Douglas 

Do you feel scared at work? Is not having children your entire personality? Would you like to understand the joys of lesbianism? Well, we are back and we've got what you are looking for.

[Theme music]

[00:00:20] Lucy Douglas

Hello and welcome to Mag Hags, the podcast that's brooding over babies or not. I'm Lucy Douglas. 

[00:00:27] Franki Cookney

And I'm Franki Cookney. Together, we're diving into the glossy archives of women's magazines to find out what's still hot and what's definitely not. 

[00:00:37] Lucy Douglas

Hello, Franki. We're back. 

[00:00:39] Franki Cookney

We are back. 

[00:00:41] Lucy Douglas

Yes. 

[00:00:41] Franki Cookney

Welcome to season two of Mag Hags, and have we got a season for you. Episodes will be dropping weekly from now on. We've got amazing interviews with editors of iconic titles and we've got magazines you might never have heard of. 

[00:00:58] Lucy Douglas

Anyone remember Riva? I highly doubt it because it ran for seven issues. 

[00:01:03] Franki Cookney

And of course, all your old pals such as Cosmo, Marie Claire, and Company. And yes, later this season we will be looking at your favourite and mine, More! magazine.

[00:01:14] Lucy Douglas

So much to look forward to. And as always, don't forget to sign up to our newsletter to make sure that you get all the behind the scenes details and bonus magazine content. 

[00:01:24] Franki Cookney

That's at maghags.substack.com. But before we get to any of that, Lucy. What have you got for me today? 

[00:01:31] Lucy Douglas

Franki, we have got a great episode lined up. We are heading back to the eighties where we'll be digging into women's safety in the workplace. Then a bit later on, we'll be asking, babies: hot or not?

[00:01:44] Franki Cookney

Evergreen subject.

[00:01:46] Lucy Douglas

I know. I've got some cracking eighties fashion and beauty tips for you and an exotic new culinary craze.

[00:01:55] Franki Cookney

Is it hedgehog flavour crisps?

[00:01:59] Lucy Douglas

No. Um, it's actually iced coffee.

[00:02:02] Franki Cookney

Iced coffee!

[00:02:03] Lucy Douglas

I know, imagine. Um, and then we are rounding off with an interview with author Jeanette Winterson in the wake of her bestselling debut novel, Oranges Are Not The Only Fruit. And let me tell you, she was exactly as iconic at 27 as she is now.

[00:02:20] Franki Cookney

Oh, amazing. I can't wait.

[Music break]

[00:02:24] Franki Cookney

Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday dear Lucy.

[00:02:33] Lucy Douglas

Amazing. Um, thank you so much, Franki!

[00:02:37] Franki Cookney

Are we, or are we not in the month of your birth this week? 

[00:02:41] Lucy Douglas

We are, we are! Listeners, we are in July, 1987. Yeah, it's my birth month. So we are looking at a magazine that I'm sure most of our listeners or all of our listeners will be familiar with because it is still going today and it is Elle magazine.

[00:03:03] Franki Cookney

Oh, amazing.

[00:03:05] Lucy Douglas

We've got this really sort of, like candid model shot. She's got a little bit of like sand on her face. She's sort of smiling at the camera, she's got freckles on her nose, she's wearing a sun hat and, and yeah, she's just, it just looks very like "candidly caught on my holiday by my lovely boyfriend" sort of vibe.

[00:03:25] Franki Cookney

Yeah, she's gorgeous.

[00:03:27] Lucy Douglas

I have to say, this magazine is in excellent condition, and I think that's because it's like, super premium paper. This is such a nerdy magazine point, but it's like really premium paper stock, like it feels, feels like you're holding like a really, really premium magazine.

So, yeah, Elle had launched in the UK uh, in 1985, so it's only been going for a couple of years at this point. It was launched under the editorship of Sally Brampton, and she is still the editor of this issue that we're looking at, and this is what she says of the magazine when it launched and how it was trying to place itself in the market. "There was a whole new generation of women fumbling its way towards tomorrow. Elle was the first mainstream publication to act as a voice for that generation. The philosophical bedrock on which Elle was built, and on which it still firmly stands, is style with content. Yes, we wanted to be careless and carefree to live in lofts and hang out in bars to drink vodka-tinis till dawn. Well, who doesn't?"

So that was, um, that was from an article by Dylan Jones, who's the erstwhile editor of GQ and that was in the Independent in 1995. So that's a piece written to sort of mark the 10 year anniversary of Elle. But yeah, I think that style with content idea, I'd say that's a pretty good, still a pretty accurate description of Elle now?

[00:04:52] Franki Cookney

Yeah, I think they're still fulfilling that brief.

[00:04:54] Lucy Douglas

So elsewhere in 1987, just to sort of anchor us in time, I feel like we had some really big culture hitters. So films that year we had Fatal Attraction, Platoon, Wall Street, Good Morning, Vietnam.

[00:05:10] Franki Cookney

And Full Metal Jacket. So big year for Vietnam War films.

[00:05:14] Lucy Douglas

Which kind of, I feel like that tracks, right? Like I feel like that's just sort of far enough away from it for it to start, for the art to start feeling like interesting and not triggering.

[00:05:25] Franki Cookney

Yeah.

[00:05:25] Lucy Douglas

The Princess Bride came out in 1987. Are you a Princess Bride stan, Franki?

[00:05:31] Franki Cookney

I mean, I wouldn't say excessively so, but, you know. I'll drop an "inconceivable" at a timely moment. I'll do that. I'm waiting for you to mention the most important film of 1987.

[00:05:46] Lucy Douglas

What was the most important film of 1987? 

[00:05:49] Franki Cookney

It was Dirty Dancing! 

[00:05:51] Lucy Douglas

Oh my God! I mean, Dirty Dancing. Every time I rewatch it I'm like, this is Austenian 

[00:05:57] Franki Cookney

It's wonderful.

[00:05:58] Lucy Douglas

It's perfect. 

[00:05:58] Franki Cookney

It's a beautiful, perfect film. Yes, I agree. 

[00:06:02] Lucy Douglas

Some headlines from the year: British Airways was privatised and listed on the stock exchange in 1987. That was sort of part of this kind of wave of privatisations that were happening in this sort of end of the eighties with like British Gas, BT.

[00:06:17] Franki Cookney

Mm.

[00:06:18] Lucy Douglas

Yeah. All those sorts of organisations were all becoming privatised. The Ms. Herald of Free Enterprise Disaster. Did you know about that? 

[00:06:27] Franki Cookney

I knew that, um, I knew that 1987 was like a, a big, there's really no way to say this that doesn't sound incredibly flippant. It was a big year for disasters.

[00:06:36] Lucy Douglas

I knew you were gonna say that and that's why I'm laughing.

[00:06:39] Franki Cookney

I remember the Great Storm. The hurricane of 1987, and I actually do remember that because I would've been three at the time. So I have like actual memories of that. Um, and I knew that the King's Cross fire happened in 1987. 

[00:06:53] Lucy Douglas

So the Ms. Herald, a free enterprise ferry disaster. The ferry capsized, not long after leaving port in Belgium and 193 passengers and crew died.

[00:07:04] Franki Cookney

Horrifying.

[00:07:05] Lucy Douglas

Um, which is, yeah, so horrifying.

[00:07:08] Franki Cookney

Mmm.

[00:07:09] Lucy Douglas

We had another general election. It was Margaret Thatcher's third successful general election.

[00:07:14] Franki Cookney

Mm-hmm.

[00:07:15] Lucy Douglas

The Church of England voted to allow women to become ordained as ministers or priests.

[00:07:20] Franki Cookney

Oh, cool.

[00:07:20] Lucy Douglas

If they so wished. In 1987, the AIDS epidemic was at a real sort of, um, peak at, at this point in 1987, um, in August, it was reported that one person a day was dying from AIDS.

[00:07:34] Franki Cookney

In the UK?

[00:07:35] Lucy Douglas

In the UK. It was the year that the Broderip Ward was opened as part of Middlesex Hospital in London, and that was the first dedicated facility in the UK for the treatment of people with HIV and AIDS. It was opened by Diana, Princess of Wales, and that kind of sparked one of the things that we now really remember, Princess Diana for, how she sort of helped to really shift perceptions of HIV and AIDS.

[00:08:00] Franki Cookney

Yeah.

[00:08:01] Lucy Douglas

And people living with them by demonstrating that it couldn't be transmitted by touch, just by kind of holding hands with some of the patients, giving them a hug. 

[00:08:10] Franki Cookney

Yeah. 

[00:08:10] Lucy Douglas

Being compassionate in a very tactile way. Okay, Franki, are you ready to check out what's on the cover of our magazine?

[00:08:18] Franki Cookney

Yes, I am.

[00:08:20] Lucy Douglas

Women Working Against Fear: a 16-page special report, a positive action plan.Hot Shots: Jeff Bridges, Jeanette Winterson, Richard E. Grant.

[00:08:32] Franki Cookney

Oh yeah.

[00:08:33] Lucy Douglas

I know, what a list of celebs. Ban the baby: the case against kids. Fresh: Splash out on shining swimwear. Riviera Chic. Our ultra bright beauty.

[00:08:48] Franki Cookney

Oh God. Immediately I'm like, yeah, I wanna, I wanna see that fashion editorial. 

[00:08:52] Lucy Douglas

Yeah, so it's fairly sparse on the cover lines. I would say this, this Elle cover, the "women working against fear, a 16 page special report" is right up the top, like in the middle of the masthead. So they're really trying to sell that.

[00:09:09] Franki Cookney

Yeah. Okay.

[00:09:10] Lucy Douglas

Are you ready to go inside the issue?

[00:09:13] Franki Cookney

Yes, please.

[Music break]

[00:09:16] Lucy Douglas

"We are working against fear. Women are increasingly worried about their vulnerability to attack the results of our exhaustive survey on risks for working Women expose it as a primary concern in their day-to-day lives, and yet neither employers nor the women themselves have taken adequate steps to improve the situation.In this 16 page report, Elle takes a clear- headed look at the real dangers and provides a workable plan for improving your sense of personal security without restricting your freedom. We present all working women with the vital facts to help them face their fears and insecurities with confidence, and then to take positive action."

Okay, so this is the special report, obviously, that was plugged on the cover. And it's based on the results of a survey that they sent out in their January issue. So six months ago. And it must have been quite a comprehensive survey because they've got like a lot of data. 

[00:10:18] Franki Cookney

I'm gonna say something, uh, controversial. This feature's way too long. 

[00:10:23] Lucy Douglas

Yeah, I thought that too.

[00:10:25] Franki Cookney

I cannot believe it's 16 pages. 

[00:10:27] Lucy Douglas

No, I couldn't either. They asked a lot of questions and they got, I think, nearly 3000 responses.

[00:10:37] Franki Cookney

Yeah.

[00:10:38] Lucy Douglas

Two, sorry, 2,138 readers.

[00:10:40] Franki Cookney

Okay.

[00:10:41] Lucy Douglas

Um, sent back their surveys and a lot also sent back kind of personal letters talking about their own experiences. So they tried to get a sense of. What kind of requirements women had in their jobs. So were they required to work one-on-one with men? Were they required to make house visits on their own? That sort of thing. 

[00:11:01] Franki Cookney

And there's a reason. There's a reason isn't there? Why it's so focused on sort of safety in the workplace or while carrying out your work tasks, right?

[00:11:12] Lucy Douglas

Sure, yeah. The hook for the whole piece was the disappearance of a woman called Susie Lamplugh. Susie Lamplugh was an estate agent in Fulham, and she went missing in July, 1986. So, so a year before this piece was published.

[00:11:28] Franki Cookney

Mm-hmm.

[00:11:28] Lucy Douglas

She was 25. She went to show a house to someone by the name of Mr. Kipper. That was the, that was the name that was in her sort of diary book on her desk in the office, and she never came back from the appointment. There were several eyewitness accounts of her on the street outside the house for sale, and in a car in the area not long after sort of arguing with a man. But that was it. The police sort of lost the trail of her, and the case was never solved. No body was ever found. No one knew what happened to her.

[00:12:02] Franki Cookney

Horrible. Completely horrible. It stands to reason that that would've really got under the skin of young women in the UK at the time, doesn't it?

[00:12:11] Lucy Douglas

Yeah, for sure. And that kind of felt very, that actually felt very familiar to me, that sense, because it felt, it felt the way I felt after Sarah Everard was murdered.

[00:12:26] Franki Cookney

Yeah.

[00:12:27] Lucy Douglas

And I, I distinctly remember that feeling and it felt like it was a feeling a lot of women were having that just, it just felt extremely like that could so easily have been me.

[00:12:37] Franki Cookney

Yeah.

[00:12:38] Lucy Douglas

So this response, I think from, from a magazine whose readership demographic is this, is this group of people felt appropriate, I would say, and and pertinent. And it also sort of feels like, it feels like something that I wouldn't have been surprised to see in like Stylist or Grazia or something, you know, in the last eight or 10 years. So I guess, I guess my first sort of question is like, what does that say? 

[00:13:11] Franki Cookney

I mean, I think that there are ways in which things have shifted. Obviously, as you said at the beginning, a lot of this is focused on like feeling safe in your place of work or in your line of work while carrying out your employment duties. Obviously, I think there are more protections around that now, and I think there's a, there's a real sense in this that did feel very 1987 to me, this idea that women have crashed through the glass ceiling, only to find that there are zero allowances made for your differing needs and circumstances. And I, it feels like the women answering this have like a pretty positive attitude, but you do get the sense that a lot of them are just, they're just putting up with this because, what are you gonna do? And there's definitely like they're afraid of missing out on opportunities and afraid of missing out on promotions and being penalised at work. 

[00:14:17] Lucy Douglas

Yeah, I thought that was, I thought that was really interesting too when I was reading it, this sense that like, yeah, I don't feel safe going to clients' homes alone at night. Or like, I don't feel safe having to like entertain wealthy clients when there's alcohol around or whatever.

[00:14:38] Franki Cookney

Yeah.

[00:14:39] Lucy Douglas

But I don't wanna say anything because I don't want to look like I can't do my job, or I don't want my male bosses to treat me differently because I'm a woman and they start to think that I'm weak and not up to it. So I just kind of put up with it. 

[00:14:57] Franki Cookney

Yeah. There was one quote because as you said, the respondents ticked a lot of boxes for the sort of quantitative data, and then they also obviously had an opportunity to tell sort of personal stories and write comments. And there's one that's been included that I think really, encapsulates this. They're all anonymous, but this reader has written in and she said, "On some occasions I'm requested to take interviews outside normal working hours, at a time when our main building is empty. Due to an incident with a, when a male candidate became threatening, I now refuse to conduct late interviews unless there is a strong male presence in the main building. I believe this has affected the attitude of my superiors - (male) - to my overall ability at the job, even though they'd be sure to deny this. It just made them aware of what they see as a weakness." So she's addressed the issue. She's reported it to superiors and she has set boundaries around it, but she is now reaping the consequences of having done so and feeling that she is being viewed differently. Seen as, I think a word that comes up quite a lot in this feature is difficult. You know, these women don't want to be seen as difficult. 

[00:16:07] Lucy Douglas

Yeah. Which, relatable. Right? 

[00:16:11] Franki Cookney

But yeah, I mean I think, I think it is probably like important to say that employment law has changed since the eighties. Women didn't have the same protections in the workplace that we have today. They had some, but not the same extent. And it was mostly based on case law. So using interpretations of the Sex Discrimination Act in 1975, like there were a few cases. One in 1983, one in 1986, which set precedent for the idea that sexual harassment in the workplace is a form of sex discrimination, and therefore an employer could be liable for that.

[00:16:48] Lucy Douglas

Yeah so we've got another story here. A senior secretary in a large firm who was persistently touched and chatted up by a client. She eventually went to her boss knowing how much he valued this client's business. So this is an important client. She says, "I approached things by saying that Mr. B is a real rogue, and I'm sure I ought to be very flattered by his attentions, but I do find it's distracting me from my work. I know that won't benefit you and the firm, so perhaps you'd better have a word. I didn't have to complain in a heavy-handed way about the man, but my boss understood and Mr. B did stop after that complaint." 

[00:17:22] Franki Cookney

So she's found quite a clever way to get around it, which, good for her, but it, that did leave me feeling quite depressed.

[00:17:30] Lucy Douglas

Depressed and angry because also that sense of like, what can I do to prevent these experiences from happening to me and how can I do it in a way that like doesn't hurt the perpetrator's feelings? And having to like, demonstrate the business case to your boss rather than, like.

[00:17:52] Franki Cookney

Yeah, that, exactly that.

[00:17:53] Lucy Douglas

Another thing that I felt was quite dated about this piece, that certainly wouldn't be what you would see if this piece was being published now, was this idea about what you wear. That definitely felt like there was a sort of message of make sure you're dressed appropriately, otherwise you're putting yourself in danger.

[00:18:12] Franki Cookney

I think they were very careful not to actually say, "you're inviting trouble." It was like, we love fashion. I mean, it's Elle right? So they're like, "we love fashion!" Yeah, we love the latest body con trends. However, it might be an idea to pop a little trench coat on like. 

[00:18:32] Lucy Douglas

Yeah. "It's always wiser to dress conservatively in dangerous or potentially dangerous situations. Several women talked about wearing sneakers on route to a social occasion and then exchanging them for stiletto hills on the doorstep."

[00:18:45] Franki Cookney

That's just good podiatry.

[00:18:47] Lucy Douglas 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. "And because flamboyant jewellery tends to be associated with the quest for glamor and glamor is often equated with sexiness. It is as well to keep the baubles under wraps. The point is that the way we dress can either say, 'I wish not to be conspicuous, or, come on and look at me, I want attention.'" I mean that felt pretty eww. 

[00:19:11] Franki Cookney

Yeah, it's a bit yikes, isn't it? 

[00:19:13] Lucy Douglas

There was a definite vibe there of like, be careful what you wear because you don't wanna be unnecessarily inviting come-ons.

[00:19:22] Franki Cookney

Yeah.

[00:19:23] Lucy Douglas

And if you are wearing something that could be associated with sexiness, 

[00:19:27] Franki Cookney

I mean it does, it does kind of finally say, like, right towards the end, "There is something topsy-turvy in the fact that women are having to find ways of dealing with risks, workout strategies and so on, when the root cause of the trouble is the behaviour of men." And I was like, okay, good. I'm glad we finally said that. But you are right, like the whole piece is a bit, um, it's leaving a, a lot of it up to the women, isn't it? 

[00:19:55] Lucy Douglas

Yeah. I do also think that part of this., Part of the whole message about it is, and part of the whole sort of point of, of doing this in the first place is to be empowering and give women some like actual tools and tips to take away so they can feel safer rather than, you know, they're potential victims all the time, and there's nothing they can do about it. 

[00:20:22] Franki Cookney

I mean, that's the conclusion I came to as well, because I was like, yeah, I don't, I don't love this. But at the same time, this is an article in Elle. It is being read by women and I think there is an extent to which, I mean, we can only control our behaviour.

[00:20:38] Lucy Douglas

Yeah.

[00:20:39] Franki Cookney

Obviously we want workplaces to acknowledge these things. We want them to put policies in place and think about how dark their car parks are after 7:00 PM and things like that. We want social change. We want changes in law, but that's not actually the remit of this piece, as you say, the remit of this piece is telling women what they can do right now, today to feel safer and more confident. And if one of those things is walk purposefully wearing like a longer coat,

[00:21:11] Lucy Douglas

Yeah.

[00:21:12] Franki Cookney

Then maybe that's okay. 

[Ad jingle]

[00:21:17] Lucy Douglas

Gosh, Franki, it's so warm.

[00:21:19] Franki Cookney

I know. Isn't it fabulous?

[00:21:22] Lucy Douglas

I'm not complaining, but I could use something to cool me down.

[00:21:25] Franki Cookney

Oh, well Lucy, I've got just the trick. So, turns out there are three steps to coolness. 

[00:21:31] Lucy Douglas

There are? 

[00:21:32] Franki Cookney

Mm-hmm. First mix, two generous teaspoons of Nescafé, two of sugar, and half a pint of cold water. Or milk and water in equal parts. Then shake it all about and finally, pour into a tall glass with tons of ice.

[00:21:47] Lucy Douglas

A cold coffee. I'd never have thought of it.

[00:21:50] Franki Cookney

Lucy. You have just made a Nescafé frappe. Now, have an iced day!

[Ad jingle]

[00:21:57] Franki Cookney

Where are you off to on your holiday, Lucy? 

[00:21:59] Lucy Douglas

I'm going to a city once glimpsed only through dreams, Franki.

[00:22:03] Franki Cookney

I see. Is that even possible?

[00:22:06] Lucy Douglas

Well, modern transport is shrinking the globe, bringing continental travel and mobility closer than ever.

[00:22:12] Franki Cookney

Wow. How exciting. I wish I could come, I mean, you haven't, still haven't told me where you're going.

[00:22:18] Lucy Douglas

Well, Franki, even if international travel is eluding you, you can always enjoy the international sound of a CD in a truly portable format.

[00:22:28] Franki Cookney

Okay... can I?

[00:22:29] Lucy Douglas

Keep up, Franki! Phillips, who mobilised sound by inventing the compact cassette and the compact disc, now offer the CD 10. It's a truly portable, compact disc player.

[00:22:40] Franki Cookney

Portable? So I can listen to my CDs on the go?

[00:22:44] Lucy Douglas

The CD 10 can be carried as far as you can travel. It has repeat forward and reverse skip and search functions, and it can be used with headphones or speakers.

[00:22:56] Franki Cookney

You're telling me I could listen to T'Pau even when I'm in the supermarket?

[00:23:00] Lucy Douglas

That's right, Franki. But wherever you choose to listen and whatever you choose to listen to, Phillips can guarantee that you will be transported.

[Ad jingle]

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[00:23:11] Franki Cookney

What nonsense copy!

[00:23:13] Lucy Douglas

The visuals are so, it feels so like post Big Bang, like big free market economics, very Wolf of Wall Street. We've got this really dynamic like suited man character who's holding his like compact disc and he is like, he is on his way to the airport and we've got like a plane flying over his head and we've got,

[00:23:38] Franki Cookney

A cruise ship in the background!

[00:23:40] Lucy Douglas

And we've got these big kind of glass like skyscrapers in the background as well. And he's like off to like do deals, but he's listening to his Walkman. 

[00:23:51] Franki Cookney

On the most enormous CD Walkman.

[00:23:56] Lucy Douglas

I know. I'm absolutely obsessed with it. 

[00:23:58] Franki Cookney

It's like the size of a toaster.

[Music break]

[00:24:04] Lucy Douglas

"No Kidding. Anne Bilson broods over why anyone should want to bring into the world a dirty, ugly, and time consuming producer of horrible noises." 

[00:24:14] Franki Cookney

Mm-hmm.

[00:24:18] Lucy Douglas

I thought this one would be good to discuss as we obviously have contrasting perspectives on this issue. So yeah, this piece has two parts. There's two essays, one that's anti kids and one that's pro. And taking the against position is Anne Bilson, who we have met before. Franki, I dunno if you remember from Cosmo 92?

[00:24:41] Franki Cookney

Yes. The blonde feature.

[00:24:43] Lucy Douglas

She is really kind of leaning into her like Samantha Jones-ness in this piece, which we will get into, but I just, I, I wanted to say a few words about what I sort of think is the hook for this feature.

[00:24:58] Franki Cookney

Yeah.

[00:24:58] Lucy Douglas

So. She sort of writes, so sort of in the first paragraph, "In the erstwhile debate on the ethics of surrogate motherhood..." and then kind of goes on. So I think that is the hook for this piece. It's the debate around surrogacy, which was really big at this point.

[00:25:14] Franki Cookney

Yeah.

[00:25:15] Lucy Douglas

The first commercial surrogate in the UK was a woman named Kim Cotton, and her case had sort of come to light in the mid eighties. She was paid £6,500 pounds to be a surrogate for an anonymous American couple. It did sound a little bit like she went into it in very good faith and was then, uh, slightly aghast to find herself at the centre of a sort of media storm about the ethics of whether or not we should even be able to do this. 

[00:25:50] Franki Cookney

Yeah.

[00:25:50] Lucy Douglas

You know, why the law needs to catch up and what the law should say and all that sort of thing. Also published in 1985, The Handmaid's Tale. Which feels like a sort of relevant cultural touchpoint on the issue of surrogacy and certainly on motherhood. 

[00:26:08] Franki Cookney

Yeah. I didn't know the story of Kim Cotton, so that's interesting. I know that there was a really big case in America, uh, in 1987, the case of Baby M.

[00:26:17] Lucy Douglas

Okay. 

[00:26:18] Franki Cookney

And in that situation, the couple who couldn't have children had entered into a surrogacy agreement with a woman who was quite considerably less well off. And so they offered her a lot of money. And then basically the reason it ended up going to court is because she agreed to this surrogacy arrangement, and then when the baby was born, she changed her mind and said she wanted to keep the baby. Because they'd done it through artificial insemination, like IVF was just not really very widely available at that point. And so it was biologically her child. So that became a big court battle and, um, the judge actually ruled to give the baby to the couple.

[00:27:01] Lucy Douglas

Wow.

[00:27:02] Franki Cookney

So huge, big debate. 

[00:27:06] Lucy Douglas

Yeah. And you know what? I would potentially be quite interested to read some, to read a for and against on that debate, but that's not, that's not what we have in front of us, Franki, what we have,

[00:27:15] Franki Cookney

No. Okay.

[00:27:16] Lucy Douglas

What we have in front of us is, um: Having a baby. Yes or no?

[00:27:21] Franki Cookney

I feel tired already, Lucy.

[00:27:25] Lucy Douglas

I mean, let's, let's begin with Anne Bilson because, um, it's lol. Okay, so I'm, I'm gonna read the rest of that, of that quote that I started. "In the erstwhile debate on the ethics of surrogate motherhood, no one thought to ask why it was that childless couples should wish to lumber themselves with a dirty, noisy, ugly little bundle of baby-dom. It was merely accepted as a God-given right for each and every one of us to have access to our own little poppet. What kind of faded, jaded existence must these unfortunates be leading for them to consider it incomplete without the addition of an infant?" I really, I really feel like she's doing it for the copy.

[00:28:10] Franki Cookney

She is trolling. She’s trolling us so hard. 

[00:28:14] Lucy Douglas

So hard. Yeah. Um, I did sort of briefly think like. I wonder if she maybe is like that type of sort of slightly eccentric creative woman who make, like, not having kids, like their entire personality. 

[00:28:30] Franki Cookney

Oh, I think she definitely is just, just from, 'cause you know, Anne Bilson is, she's still a writer. Um, she's on some social media and on her Bluesky profile in the bio, she describes herself as an "evil feminist, wicked spinster, international cat sitter." So I think that gives you the vibe like, it is a bit, and she is very committed to it. A lifelong commitment to this particular bit, I would say. Yeah.

[00:28:58] Lucy Douglas

Which, we have to respect it.

[00:29:00] Franki Cookney

Yeah, I do. I do.

[00:29:01] Lucy Douglas

I mean, very, very silly, very kind of leaning into the fact that she hates children and can't understand why anybody would,

[00:29:09] Franki Cookney

Yeah.

[00:29:10] Lucy Douglas

Would want them. I did sort of wonder, you know, how there's this sort of, there's this common sort of thing around that child free women often say is that you just, you just have to deal with all this judgment from society, from people who just didn't keep asking you when you are going to have children and say things like, "Oh, but you'll change your mind." And certainly in my experience as a woman in her late thirties who doesn't have children, I have never been posed that question like, "Oh, you will change your mind one day" and "You, you must be desperate." And you know, that's just not a thing. 

[00:29:44] Franki Cookney

Yeah. 

[00:29:45] Lucy Douglas

But, I contend, was it potentially more of a thing in 1987? I feel like, you know, 40 odd years ago, or, or nearly 40 years ago, the expectations to kind of meet a certain norm, almost certainly would've been higher. And therefore, if that's not the path that you want for yourself, I can understand why you would end up taking a slightly defensive stance against it and, and ending up... here.

[00:30:18] Franki Cookney

Yes.

[00:30:19] Lucy Douglas

Trolling the readers of Elle. How do you sort of, because, so I feel like this sort of "having a baby: for or against?" is a very sort of timeless women's magazine territory. So Yeah, let, like, let's discuss that. Let's talk about like the merits of it being such like, well trodden territory in this genre. 

[00:30:42] Franki Cookney

Yeah, I mean, it is absolutely timeless. And we actually have a magazine from 1973 coming up later in this series, which also digs into the arguments for and against having kids. So it will be really interesting when we get to that, to compare it with this. 

[00:30:58] Lucy Douglas

Okay. Yeah. Oh, I'm fascinated with that. So like, you, like at the beginning when you said like, "I'm tired already," um, like extremely relatable because ugh I just can't, I can't read another piece of someone like wondering whether or not they should have a baby.

[00:31:14] Franki Cookney

No, truly.

[00:31:15] Lucy Douglas

But then on the flip side, this specific topic "to baby or not to baby" has taken up so much of my mental real estate for the last 10 years. Like it's something that is just always in the back of my mind, like, " Am I gonna do it? Am I not gonna do it? Do I wanna do it? Do I wanna do it enough to do it on my own? I need to find a man to do that. Should I have settled with someone that I dated earlier? Do I need to freeze my eggs? Oh, I'm freezing my eggs. Now, when do I need to use my eggs? Like how much money do I need to earn if I'm gonna have a baby on my own? Do I wanna have a baby on my own? Do I wanna have a baby enough? How do I feel about this?" It's just like a constant low level hum.

[00:32:05] Franki Cookney

Yeah.

[00:32:06] Lucy Douglas

That happens and escalates throughout your thirties and obviously it's not for every woman. Lots of women don't wanna have kids, and that is fantastic. Like, I love that for you. I am so jealous of that. But I, there are a lot of women who just spend a lot of time wondering when it's gonna happen. If it, if it's gonna, if they want it to happen. When should it happen? Is now the right time? Is next year the right time? Should I wait for that promotion before we start trying? All of the, all of that stuff.

[00:32:42] Franki Cookney

Yeah.

[00:32:43] Lucy Douglas

So in that context it's like, actually, yeah. Do you know what, it kind of makes sense that like women's magazines talk about this stuff all the fucking time.

[00:32:53] Franki Cookney

Yeah.

[00:32:53] Lucy Douglas

Because their audiences are thinking about it all the fucking time. 

[00:32:56] Franki Cookney

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I think so. I also feel like I have read a version of this feature so many times and I, I also used to have this sense of like, oh my God, this is so boring. Have we not put this to bed? But I met, so you know, the writer Rhiannon Lucy Cosslett? She writes a parenting column for The Guardian. I met her recently at a friend's book launch and we were chatting, we were talking about parenting generally. We were talking about writing about parenting and how, like, in many ways, everything that can possibly be said about parenting has been said. And she said, "Yeah. You know, of course it's all been done before, but we're the first people to do it now, in this time, in this moment, and that deserves attention."

[00:33:47] Lucy Douglas

That is fascinating. 

[00:33:49] Franki Cookney

Yeah. I think, and I think that's the same with anything, right? Any of these evergreen subjects that we come back to and come back to and come back to. You know, God knows there's nothing new to say about love, but there is certainly lots that's new to say about dating and romantic relationships right now in 2025. And there will continue to be new things to say as culture shifts and society changes and technology develops and all the rest of it. And I actually feel like that's one of the most significant takeaways I've had from this podcast is that, you know, we've talked about this so many times, the fundamental human experiences are feelings, are needs, our conflicts. Those don't change. But our context does. You know, our sociopolitical backdrop does. And so, 

[00:34:33] Lucy Douglas

Yeah. 

[00:34:33] Franki Cookney

Yeah, there are, there are always new discussions to be had and there is always a need to keep re-upping these same debates. 

[00:34:40] Lucy Douglas

There are also like new readers to reach.

[00:34:43] Franki Cookney

Yeah, that too. Totally. Yeah.

[00:34:45] Lucy Douglas

I, I think a lot of this piece is like, I've sort of like flippantly called it "having a baby for or against," I don't actually think it's like trying to persuade you either way. It's trying to make people who are in either situation feel seen. She's trying to make people who don't have children, who maybe can't have children for whatever reason, who don't want children, feel good about their life. And then similarly, the second part of this feature, which we do need to get onto because it's absolutely wild. Similarly, that piece is making women who are in the throes of having small children, and it's really stressful and crazy, and life is really chaotic, feel seen and appreciate that love and excitement of having a small child. 

[00:35:41] Franki Cookney

Is it though? Because let's talk about this second essay, because relatable, it is not, 

[00:35:48] Lucy Douglas

I mean, it's so unrelatable, isn't it? The headline for this piece is Suddenly One Mother, um, Standfirst says, "Donna Grant's pregnancy came as a shock. So did her reaction to it." And yeah, I'm just gonna read the intro. "I was pregnant. I also happened to be single and jobless. The shock I felt had less to do with my unplanned state or my circumstances than the fact that I had already been a mother. With the invincible extremity of youth, I had brought a child into the world and then decided to leave her. There were always extenuating circumstances. Mine had been to get away from my husband. So I gave away all my Diors, pulled on my jeans, and headed off to art school in New York. No more dull dinner parties for puffed up senators and congressmen. No more sneaking in the odd Hells Angel to see how they mixed. No more rebellion because there was no more trap." 

[00:36:39] Franki Cookney

And then she just never returns to that! 

[00:36:42] Lucy Douglas

Never returns to it! So we then kind of learn how she ends up in London after art school.

[00:36:51] Franki Cookney

In a band!

[00:36:53] Lucy Douglas

"I became a singer in a band. Babies weren't a consideration. I was too busy singing." She's having this like hedonistic, bohemian life. cool, whatever. Then she gets pregnant and then she's, she's having this baby. 

[00:37:08] Franki Cookney

I mean, it's such a wild ride, isn't it? Because she gets pregnant by a quite a casual partner, it sounds like, but then he is quite supportive of her decision to keep the baby. And by the end of it, it sounds like they're on reasonably good terms. You know, he's in his daughter's life and they're sort of friendly, but she's very much on her own. And there's all this whole bit of like, I" had no job, but then somebody I met offered me a role teaching aerobics. So three months after they had the baby, I was back teaching aerobics. And then I was unemployed for a bit and then I decided to get a job and then I got like six jobs, so then I got a nanny and then the nanny left 'cause I was mean to her. And then I was unemployed" and I was just like, what? Sorry, what? Like, this does not chime with my experience of having kids in any way, so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from this.

[00:38:04] Lucy Douglas

I, I like, I really got that. What you're supposed to take away from it is the fact that, and through it all, through all this chaos, through all this drama, I have my wonderful daughter who I love loads.

[00:38:15] Franki Cookney

Okay.

[00:38:17] Lucy Douglas

Because it ends with, "Anyway, I do not really go it alone. I'm accompanied by my small best friend who happens to be my daughter." Which, gorgeous, cute. But like all I could think was like, imagine being that first daughter and like imagine finding this, this article one day and your mum has written about her wonderful relationship with her, lovely other daughter that she had, and you are just sort of mentioned as a kind of aside and never returned to again.

[00:38:48] Franki Cookney

Yeah, yeah. Do you know what? I didn't get this on first read, but I see it now that the through line is, "but nothing could shake my love for my daughter. Nothing made me regret that choice." But I was so distracted by all of the chaos that like was happening in her life, some of it through her own doing, and some of it by circumstances thrown at her. I just got to the end and was like, yeah, I don't really have anything to say about this, 'cause I just had my children and then went back to work. Within the context of my marriage. I guess I'm really boring. 

[Music]

[00:39:33] Lucy Douglas

Hello, Lucy here. Just a quick one to say, if you've not yet signed up for our newsletter, you definitely should. You can read the features that we talk about, see all the amazing adverts. And get access to loads of other bonus bits. Plus, it's a really good way to support the show. Find us at maghags.substack.com.

[Music]

[00:39:57] Lucy Douglas

Are you ready for your fashion tip of the week? Franki? 

[00:39:59] Franki Cookney

If it's from 1987, I am so ready. 

[00:40:03] Lucy Douglas

So less of a tip, more of a trend, but I'm gonna say for your fashion tip of the week, get a taffeta skirt. 

[00:40:12] Franki Cookney

Oh, yes! I've been waiting my whole life to be instructed to get a taffeta skirt. 

[00:40:19] Lucy Douglas

It's all come down to this moment, Franki. This is one of the several fashion editorials that we've got. It's called, Enchanted Summer, Evening, or Summer Enchanted Evening. "Frosted swirls of taffeta and satin with close fitting knits for alternative evening dressing." So we are mixing these like really full skirts, um, kind of either A line or some of them on this opening spread are, are almost sort of puffball-y

[00:40:47] Franki Cookney

Yeah.

[00:40:47] Lucy Douglas

And they are sort of paired with these knitted jumpers or like a sort of ballet wrap cardie. 

[00:40:53] Franki Cookney

Mm love a little mixed texture look. Yeah, I like that kind of silky skirt with a chunky knit, that's got a really pleasing balance to it.

[00:41:03] Lucy Douglas

I'm afraid we've got a somewhat toxic beauty tip for you.

[00:41:07] Franki Cookney

Oh. We've really managed to avoid real toxic beauty tips up till now, so. Alright, I'm ready. 

[00:41:15] Lucy Douglas

This is a real "Get your body summer ready" feature.

[00:41:22] Franki Cookney

Oh, okay.

[00:41:22] Lucy Douglas

So it's called, the feature is called Smooth Shapes, and it's all about, like, getting your body kind of toned, getting rid of your cellulite, getting yourself looking as like

[00:41:31] Franki Cookney

Beach body ready?

[00:41:32] Lucy Douglas

Yeah. The standfirst says, "Thighs could be trimmed of cellulite with a regular program of exercise, good diet and massage." So this is, this is my tip for you. 

[00:41:41] Franki Cookney

Okay. 

[00:41:42] Lucy Douglas

"Do your body brushing in a warm bath with soap to prevent dragging on your skin. And then you shower in a sequence of cold, warm, cold water to stimulate your circulation."

[00:41:58] Franki Cookney

Okay.

[00:41:59] Lucy Douglas

That was, I, I'm gonna say that felt like the least snake-oily because I, I, I think that probably will increase your circulation, flicking from hot and cold water in the, under the shower and also the, the least problematic element of this.

[00:42:18] Franki Cookney

Wow.

[00:42:19] Lucy Douglas

Extremely problematic feature. 

[00:42:20] Franki Cookney

I have to say that, um, this is particularly triggering for me because I spent a lot of my teenage years trying to not have cellulite and failing because it's largely genetic, but I spent so many hours, probably if you added them all up, scrubbing and massaging my thighs in the bath. To no avail! 

[00:42:45] Lucy Douglas

I've never been any good at body brushing. I just, um, find it so boring. 

[00:42:52] Franki Cookney

Yeah, it is fucking boring. I don't do any of that shit now. I am so happy to be 41 and no longer care at all about cellulite.

[Music break]

[00:43:03] Lucy Douglas

"Winterson's Tales.. Jeanette Winterson's first novel, Oranges Are Not The Only Fruit, enthralled the public and estranged her from her parents. In her latest, an extract from which appears on page 22, her powers and determination not to compromise are undiminished. Interview by Sarah Spankie"

[00:43:23] Franki Cookney

Sarah Spankie!

[00:43:25] Lucy Douglas

Sarah Spankie.

[00:43:27] Franki Cookney

Wow. Oh my God. Honestly, I feel like bylines are not what they used to be.

[00:43:31] Lucy Douglas

They're really not. Are they? This is an interview with author Jeanette Winterson, her debut novel, which is real auto fiction, it was very loosely fictionalised, Oranges Are Not The Only Fruit. That's her debut. It's now on the curriculum, I think, it's now a book that kids study at school. It was not when we would've been at school, Franki, because as we've discussed before on the podcast, we were educated under Section 28 and Jeanette Winston's book is very much about her kind of formative experience of realising that she was gay. It is a wonderful book. If you haven't read it, if anybody hasn't read it, I implore you to go out and read it. 

[00:44:17] Franki Cookney

I have to make a confession, which is that I'm like a little bit obsessed with Jeanette Winterson and not actually just because of the book, although, as you've said, is an absolutely seminal LGBTQ novel, like you will not find a queer woman who has not heard of this book. And it was huge at the time as well. Like it sold so many copies. It was really big. Which is obviously why she is being interviewed in Elle, right? 

[00:44:42] Lucy Douglas

Yeah. 

[00:44:42] Franki Cookney

But that's not, I'm obsessed with her because every time I've ever read an interview with her, I'm just like, "oh my God, she's amazing!" Like I'm so,

[00:44:52] Lucy Douglas

Same.

[00:44:53] Franki Cookney

I'm so attracted to her energy, and this 1987 interview is no different. 

[00:44:58] Lucy Douglas

No different! 

[00:45:00] Franki Cookney

She's always been like this. 

[00:45:02] Lucy Douglas

Yeah, I know. So I'm just gonna read this paragraph. "Winterson is determined to exploit any publicity she attracts as a writer to promote the joys of lesbianism. 'I've never hidden my sexuality, and I think I'm in a good position to present a positive image of what it means to be gay,' she says."

[00:45:20] Franki Cookney

I mean, she does. She does present a positive image of what it means to be gay.

[00:45:25] Lucy Douglas

I mean, I don't think you'd see an interview of this length with an author in this type of a magazine. Maybe in like a Sunday supplement, but not in this type of a magazine. 

[00:45:38] Franki Cookney

Mainly I thought, you know, as we said before when we, in our very, very first episode, we had a feature where, um, the writer had quoted Margaret Atwood, and we commented on that about the idea of quoting an author and the fact that there were sort of fewer ways to be famous in the 1980s. Now, the first interview in a magazine might be like someone off reality TV or, you know, a comedian or, or something else, but ,. In 1987, being an author, a bestselling young author, because she is, how old is she at this point? 27?

[00:46:15] Lucy Douglas

She's 27.

[00:46:16] Franki Cookney

Yeah. And a lesbian that sort of was enough to confer celebrity status onto you.

[00:46:23] Lucy Douglas

Yeah. 

[00:46:24] Franki Cookney

However, the thing that I kind of wanted to say is that, yes, it's an interview with an author, but it's doing a lot more than that. Like, this is a decision to publish this interview.

[00:46:40] Lucy Douglas

Yeah.

[00:46:40] Franki Cookney

With a lesbian author in 1987.

[00:46:44] Lucy Douglas

Yeah.

[00:46:45] Franki Cookney

You mentioned in our intro that the AIDS crisis is really at a peak right now. A person dying in the UK every day from AIDS related illnesses. Margaret Thatcher was reelected, the Tories ran an astonishingly homophobic campaign that year, exploiting people's fear around HIV/AIDS. They accused Labour of wanting to teach kids about homosexuality. They, they came up sort of saying, oh, you know, "if you vote for labor, these are the books that your children will be reading in school." And of course, as we've looked at when we did the Marie Claire episode, we are right on the cusp of the Conservative government introducing section 28, which will ban all "promotion" in inverted commas of homosexuality. So that starts being discussed towards the end of 1987, it's originally known as Clause 27, and then by the time it gets passed into law, it becomes Section 28 in 1988.

It's a really, really homophobic time in the UK and I think the point that when I got to, which you just read out a minute ago where it says "she's determined to exploit any publicity to promote the joys of lesbianism," and I do not think that wording is an accident. 

[00:47:58] Lucy Douglas

No. 

[00:47:59] Franki Cookney

And so I felt really excited to see this interview 'cause I was like, I think this is Elle taking a stand.

[00:48:07] Lucy Douglas

She then goes on to say, "So she, yeah, she says that the quote I've already read, "I've never hidden my sexuality, and I think I'm in a good position to present a positive image of what it means to be gay." Then she goes on to say, "I'm very worried about the post AIDS backlash, and I foresee more trouble ahead. Gay men and women are seen as the disease carriers, and apart from that, no one ever says how much fun being gay can be. I want to show that I'm not screwed up and miserable or guilty and wretched. I'm living the life that I want to live." 

[00:48:35] Franki Cookney

Yeah. So the whole first section is about being a lesbian. And then it starts to go into her backstory and what the book's about and all of that. And, and then there's some great detail in there as well. 

[00:48:51] Lucy Douglas

There's some such good stuff in there. So there's this whole thing about how, she's had this enormous smash hit with Oranges Are Not The Only Fruit, and she had a two book deal with, so she published her second one, it was written toward her for the humour list that was called Boating for Beginners. But she says she wasn't prepared to kind of stay on that humour list, which was where they kind of wanted to put her. So she made the decision to break with her publisher, which is such a phenomenally, like, brave decision to make, like some may even say like stupid

[00:49:24] Franki Cookney

Foolhardy. Yeah.

[00:49:25] Lucy Douglas

But she makes this decision and then she wrote this third novel, The Passion. So her agent also looked after Ruth Rendell and kind of arranged in a, in a Hacks style for, um, her to go and stay at Ruth's house because she needed somebody to like housesit for her while she was away, presumably on a book tour or something like that. So she kind of stays in this like, very strange and mysterious house that Ruth Rendell lives in, "in the middle of nowhere with all the right diversions for writing, walking, gardening, pottering around. It was the perfect setup. I was almost entirely alone for the five weeks just writing. I must admit that when I finished, I thought this is really good."

[00:50:10] Franki Cookney

Yeah.

[00:50:11] Lucy Douglas

So this, my favourite quote from it is towards the bottom of the second paragraph. On this second page, it's talking about the, the new book, it's talking about The Passion, and it says, "The Passion is a story about sexual passion and choices, and the dangers of compromise." And then Jeanette Winston says, "Compromise is anathema to me. It's something I never want for myself and hate to see in other people."

[00:50:34] Franki Cookney

Oh, I love her.

[00:50:36] Lucy Douglas

I know. Do you remember, uh, this might be, this is really niche. I think it was during the pandemic. She got caught up in a Twitter storm. Because she had a new book coming out. She hated the cover. She thought it made it look like a sort of certain type of like, gentle, like domestic.

[00:50:54] Franki Cookney

Oh my God. She burnt her own books, didn't she? I do remember this. 

[00:50:59] Lucy Douglas

Yeah. So she threw all her proof copies on a fire and took a picture of her books burning and tweeted it out, saying, "Can't abide being associated with the worst type of women's fiction," or something along those lines. She, she got like. She got like a lot of, um, people piling in saying like, oh, how privileged to be able to burn your own book. There was a lot of criticism about that. And then she, I think after like the next day or something, she like tweeted something else, just basically saying like. "Gosh, what an overreaction I had. Don't mind, don't mind me."

[00:51:35] Franki Cookney

"Don't worry guys."

[00:51:36] Lucy Douglas

Exactly. It was so funny and it was such like wonderful energy to see, just like taking accountability and yeah, living your life out loud with, with zero shame. I'm, I'm not going to be drawn into like, the earnest nonsense that can so easily happen on, on Twitter or any social media platform if you choose to kind of take social media like deeply, deeply, seriously.

[00:52:01] Franki Cookney

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[00:52:02] Lucy Douglas

It's just very, you know, wear it very lightly. Yeah, that's it. Take yourself seriously, but wear it lightly.

[Music break]

[00:52:10] Lucy Douglas

Okay. Franks, what is hot in 1987?

[00:52:14] Franki Cookney

I'm gonna say having babies.

[00:52:18] Lucy Douglas

And what's not in 1987? 

[00:52:20] Franki Cookney

Also having babies. 

[00:52:23] Lucy Douglas

Very good. 

[00:52:26] Franki Cookney

Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed today's show. 

[00:52:29] Lucy Douglas

If you did, please consider leaving us five stars or sending this episode to a friend. It'll help the podcast grow. 

[00:52:35] Franki Cookney

We hope you join us again next time on Mag Hags when we'll be finding out our chances of getting pregnant tonight. Bye.

[00:52:43] Lucy Douglas

Bye-bye.

[Theme music]

Mag Hags is written and hosted by Lucy Douglas and Franki Cookney.
Editing and audio production by Franki Cookney.

Our theme music is Look Where That Got You, Mattie Maguire. Additional music: Leotard Haul, Dez Moran. Both courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com.

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